EXPOSED: The Source Of Cliven Bundy’s Crackpot Constitutionalism

The unfolding drama in the Nevada desert over a deadbeat cattle rancher’s refusal to pay customary grazing fees like every other rancher, continues to excite the Tea Party pseudo-patriots who believe that threatening a range war in defense of personal greed is a mark of virtue. However, Cliven Bundy’s domestic terrorism serves nothing more than his own selfish financial interests, and the crusade he purports to lead is rooted in the worst sort of perversion of constitutional principles.

Bundy has resisted paying to graze his cattle on federal land because he doesn’t recognize the authority of the government to assess those fees. In fact, he doesn’t even “recognize the United States government as even existing.” His argument has lost repeatedly in court, but he continues to ignore his responsibility and to defy the law. His malfeasance amounts to the theft of over a million dollars from the American people. Ironically, if his argument prevailed he would be subject to paying the state of Nevada for grazing rights at $15.50 per head of cattle, rather than the federal rate of $1.35. But simple math, like simple logic, is too complicated for these cretins. So instead, they take up arms against their fellow Americans and pretend to defend their twisted misinterpretation of the Constitution.

Now we have evidence of where Bundy may have picked up his constitutional delusions. In a recent media appearance, Bundy was proudly displaying a copy of the Constitution in his shirt pocket.

Cliven Bundy

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After searching for the distinctive cover of the document in Bundy’s pocket, the publisher turned out to be the innocuously named National Center for Constitutional Studies (NCCS). However, the NCCS is not the commendable educational organization it purports to be. It began life as the Freemen Institute, a vehicle for the far-right, Mormon, anti-commie, history revisionist, W. Cleon Skousen. Skousen taught that the Constitution was inspired by a God who intended America to be a Christian nation. He also professed the canon of white supremicism that Anglo-Saxons are descended from a lost tribe of Israel. The Southern Poverty Law Center chronicled the NCCS curriculum based on Skousen’s philosophy saying that he…

“…demonized the federal regulatory agencies, arguing for the abolition of everything from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to the Environmental Protection Agency. He wanted to repeal the minimum wage, smash unions, nullify anti-discrimination laws, sell off public lands and national parks, end the direct election of senators, kill the income tax and the estate tax, knock down state-level walls separating church and state, and, of course, raze the Federal Reserve System.”

Sound familiar? Skousen’s warped ideology syncs up perfectly with the Tea Party and other purveyors of fringe fear mongering like politi-vangelist Glenn Beck, who literally begged his audience to read Skousen’s book, “The 5000 Year Leap,” which Beck said was “divinely inspired.” The conspiracy-obsessed NCCS shares with Beck and Bundy an animosity toward government that exceeds the boundaries of common sense. Along with Skousen’s books, the NCCS website features anti-UN screeds (“Confronting Agenda 21″), treatises on wingnut electoral reforms (“Repeal 17 Now!”), harbingers of one-world government (“The Rise of Global Governance”), and appeals for institutionalized theocracy (“America’s God & Country”). No wonder Bundy was sporting a version of the Constitution that was distributed by the NCCS, an organization that advances ultra-conservative conspiracy theories and promotes anti-government hostility.

The threatening hysteria and deception emanating from Bundy, and the armed militias that came to his defense, are emblematic of the apocalyptic doctrine of the NCCS. It is no accident that Bundy’s Constitution was provided by a group whose teachings have been denounced by historians and constitutional scholars. But it does explain the extremism and advocacy of violence that Bundy et al have espoused. All of this makes it all the more inappropriate and irresponsible for Bundy to be hailed as hero by conservative media outlets like the National Review and Fox News who, just last week, compared Bundy to Gandhi in a feat of epic cognitive collapse.

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117 thoughts on “EXPOSED: The Source Of Cliven Bundy’s Crackpot Constitutionalism

  1. Bundy is an American hero not a low scum like the liberal media and The corrupt Obama/ Bush traitors

    • Yes,*nods head*… quite compelling. Well, I’m convinced.

    • Sure he is. He’s really just a deadbeat welfare queen. But hey who cares right? Forget the actual facts on the ground. Like using your women for human shields.

      • You might judge a working man as a queen
        Because you lacked a father growing up and have become a queen wearing pants and a jock strap.
        The government stole 600,000 acres of his because of a BS endangered turtle.
        Everyone knows they stole his property because of the rare earth minerals were there.

        • Admit it. You’re secretly a Democratic troll, posting this stuff to make the tea party people look bad. LOL

        • How many conspiracy theories can you fit into a single paragraph, let alone a sentence? LOL

        • 600,000 acres of “his?” Really? The guy owns 160 acres, and has been mooching off the rest of us for years to feed the cattle that can’t survive on his own little parcel. Pray tell, how did he come to own 600,000 acres?

        • Let them speak. i really love witnessing tea-partisans and ammo-sexuals trying to communicate. grand overwrought rhetorical pronouncements and ad-hominem assaults is the full extent of their intellectual capacity when discussing their favorite issues with “libtards”. when trying to communicate with fellow true believers the full extent of their intellectual capacity is abject credulity. thank you G on.

          • Ammo-sexual!

            Thank you for adding a new word to my vocabulary, good sir

            • Hey! I *do* resemble that one!
              I am *extremely* picky when it comes to ammunition selection.
              It has to be reasonably clean, non-corrosive (match grade firearms are *expensive*) and match grade.

              But, I’m a bit different from the gun nuts *or* insurrectionists.
              The only tyranny I fight is the tyranny of that x in the center of the x ring.
              Or the tyranny of not having game meat on my table, when said game is in season.
              As the latter isn’t the majority of the year, the former *is* the majority of the usage of my firearms.
              Well, save for what they *actually* do for the vast majority of any year. Collect dust, to be cleaned annually or when used.

              The notion of using firearms to protect one’s “nation” from tyranny is ludicrous, as I’ve personally seen and directed fire from an AC-130, assorted fast movers, rotary wing assets, etc.
              Always “sort of” wanted to direct a BUFF, but a B-52 load is a lot of harm to deliver. I’ve yet to meet anyone I wanted to direct *that* much harm to.
              Besides, it’d not be precise. We prided ourselves on precise, surgical operations, not blunderbuss smash everything in sight operations.

          • Stop it! You’re using words that are much too big for a conservative to possibly understand. Play nice and use your Elementary School dictionary.

        • Listen, G-spot. The fact is, the land that his cattle were taken from was never his, will never be his and has always belonged to the federal government. I really don’t care how you want to pretend history was different, as you are flat out wrong.
          To be really, really blunt, it is just fortunate that this retired veteran wasn’t calling the shots.
          My reaction to armed insurrection is a bit different. If they want to bravely take cover behind their wives skirts and children’s diapers, that is their unfortunate decision.
          Because, I’d have called in an AC-130 to clear off the highway, send in a highway crew to remove the rubble and fill in the new potholes and call it a day.

          You forget your history. George Washington himself went out with the troops to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion , a rebellion over taxation on whiskey distillation. The rebellion ended when the troops came within sight and the idiots shut up.

          Frankly, this retired veteran is sick and tired of hearing sedition being made, of insurrection being championed, which is treason. All felonies that should result in a very long prison stay and a lifelong prohibition from possessing firearms.
          I honestly wish these idiots would attack their government as they threaten to do. I’d get recalled from retirement and treat them precisely as nicely as I and my teams treated Taliban and Al Qaeda combatants.

          • Bravo my friend.
            The seditionists and those that egg them on need to be put against the wall as traitors.

            • No need to execute them. Let them serve in prison for a long, long time *and* pay massive fines that liquidate their estate.

        • G you are quite the moron. You do know the ACA has a mental health mandate?
          Bundy’s family bought 160 acres in about 1947. Is that difficult for you to understand? Do you think UFO’s may be involved? Do you think Senator Reid is involved too?
          Maybe you are suffering from lack of oxygen due to the sheet you are wearing.
          The peoples land was never his.

        • Bundy says that he does not own the land. He says that he should be able to use it for free and run as many cows as he wants on the land but that he does not claim ownership. You don’t think that he would pay property taxes on it, do you? Mr. Bundy thinks the American people owe him a free ride.

        • G, you should pick better human beings to support.
          Bundy’s claim of ancestral rights are a lie. His family bought the land in 1948, 2 years after
          the BLM came into existence.
          The families cattle didn’t start grazing in that area until 1954.
          Bundy has no claim, he’s a fraud.

    • This guy is nothing but a smart thief getting bunch of his dumbass friends to do his dirty work. Hope they all end up in jail where they belong. Had this been a Muslim or better yet a minority the teabaggers would be up on arm frothing at the mouth for the gubiment to bomb the hell out of them. Tea bagger stupidity knows no bounds. Pay your taxes and fees like the rest of us you thief.

    • You’ve done an excellent job of exposing who this extremist is and how he’s using the delusional nonsense Skousen and Glenn Beck promote. What’s especially interesting about this case is how Glenn Beck’s audience has turned on him for back pedaling away from this Mormon rancher. Beck already has a defamation lawsuit to deal with as a result of his false accusations against an innocent Saudi student, so he’s distancing himself from this case and trying to sell MLK, Gandhi style peaceful resistance. Problem is, his audience isn’t buying it.

    • All of you brain washed Fox news Americans should think about the following;
      You Fed. Gov. haters drove on Fed. funded hiways, drank Fed. funded water projects used Fed. funded Electricity and by the way used Fed. funded (through tax breaks) fuel. You piss and moan about the Fed. Gov. but are silent on how BIG BIZ has screwed this Country. Wake the “F” up before it’s too late fools

    • Hero? Someone who stands under an American flag and then declares that he doesn’t recognize the US government? A deadbeat who doesn’t pay his paltry grazing fees when he puts his cattle out on public land when pretty much all the other ranchers in the state expect to pay theirs? When after he loses his day in court, not once but twice, he calls on a bunch of armed wingnuts who use women and children as human shields hoping that the feds will fire on them? You need to look up the definitions of patriot and traitor. “Low scum” is actually too kind of a description for this self-aggrandizing POS.

  2. Are people aware that this is a satire site? But, like all good satire, this has elements of truth or “believability”.
    LMAO

  3. You can buy that copy of the Constitution on Amazon for a buck. Doubt he put much thinking into it unlike you look for conspiracy

  4. “Militia” is defiend in constitutions and laws — not ad-hoc by illiterate Founders/fov’t-hating gun nuts. As example, the Constitution — all of which is in effect at the same time — expressly stipulates the purposes of Militia:

    Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The Congress shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [enforce] the Laws of the Union, [and] suppress Insurrections.

    Further, in both the Founders’ Federal constitutions, and their state constitutions, one finds that the Commander-in-Chief of the Militia is the President — when it is Federalized — or the states’ governors. OBVIOUSLY, the gov’t is not going to use the Militia to attack itself.

    Bundy and the gangsters backing his anti-Americanism are gangsters, criminals, traitors. And those who defend them are at best stoopid.

  5. Sure he should pay his taxes like the illegals Nancy Pelosi cleaned their feet.

  6. I paid 27 thousand in federal taxes this year. Am I pissed about this, absolutely not. Every American must pay his/her fair share. I dont like giving the government my money but unlike the tea party nuts I understand that without every American paying their fair share the country would not be able to run. Bundy has avoided paying his fair share for 20 years. He is making money off the land that we own without paying his fair share. Bundy and anyone that took up arms to defend his illegal trespassing should be locked up and the cattle should be sold off at auction to try and recoup some of the money he has avoided paying for all these years.

  7. Paying taxes is fine but when the politician pocket and give away our money and put us into a depression something is radically wrong.

    • Giving away our money and putting us into a depression, s was done by the previous administration.

  8. Actually it was closer to 640,000 acres that’s been in his family since the 1800′s and which the federal government took over with the excuse of saving the endangered desert tortoise which have never been endangered.

    • Where is the documentation or a link to the documentation that proves what you say is true. Just because you can type it, that doesn’t make it a fact. Look I will try it, I am a billionaire. Damn that didn’t work.

      • LOL!!! I would say that too but I’m afraid I’d end up finding out I’m married to one of the Koch brothers.

    • Even Bundy admits it isn’t his land. Not to mention his family paid the fees for decades before he decided to stop. The tortoise sanctuary didn’t even exist until a decade after he refused to pay.

    • The land has never been in Bundy’s family. Even Bundy does not claim ownership of the land. He has had his day in court, in fact, he has multiple judgements against him

  9. grazing lease fees are not taxes. grazing lease fees are rent. don’t pay your rent?
    you get evicted. period. works that way for everyone else, why not for bundy?

  10. Maybe this will turn into another Branch Davidian fiasco where the feds show up with tanks and guns and kill lots of innocent women and children – isn’t that your kind of government Mark? Got to enforce the authority of the federal government, don’t they? Government shouldn’t be in this line of work, but I do agree if he is using land that is not his, he should be paying the rent if it was agreed. There is no free lunch, unless you’re a progressive. If this gets bloody and the feds come out on top – will you be celebrating Mark? You know that could easily happen since the federal government must maintain its authority over all of us – just as you like it.

    • Do you ever get tired of showcasing the total nonsense you believe in? The lack of self awareness is frightening. Do you really see progressives as the type of people who want to see people die? Do you truly believe that people that disagree with you are the enemy and will come to kill you? That’s completely batshit!!!

      Apparently you don’t know how Waco went down. An insane cult leader that fooled people into giving up all their money to him, (because he said he was Jesus Christ, and why wouldn’t he be? Magic is real after all if you just BELIEEEEVE!!!), used that money to buy a compound and stockpile a shitload of illegal weapons and weapon systems that could easily be described as wmd’s. Then, when law enforcement went to, get this crazy shit-ENFORCE THE LAW, he invoked divine orders to fight instead of practice Christ-like pacifism. When he saw they would lose, he poisoned the kids with cyanide and set the whole damn compound on fire and murdered everybody. After of course he and his cult murdered a few law enforcement officers. When you point a gun at a cop, you die. When has that ever changed? When law enforcement investigates you and finds crime, and when they go to take you in and you fight them with a stockpile of weapons, they shoot you. When has that ever been different? Does it matter what you believe? Does it matter where you are? You fight the cops, even if they’re wrong, you get shot.

      I’m really sick and tired of you trying to label Mark and people here as fucking terrorists and worse than because we disagree with your brand of total absolutist insanity and obtuse reactionary hyperbole. I mean, the federal government shouldn’t be able to enforce federal law? Again, the lack of self awareness is fucking STAGGERING. History never taught you a goddamn thing, did it? The Civil War? Desegregation? Taxes? A military? Border protection? Love Canal? Valley of the Drums? The FAA? The FCC? The NRC? How could someone genuinely trust in cynicism to such a point that it destroys any sense of patriotism in the achievements of history? How could your dissensus with your peers obliterate any sense of compatriotism and blind you to the founding principal of logical debate sans abhorrence?

      You allowed the tools of propaganda, fear and division, to turn you into a shitty American. One that doesn’t see anything in politics but absolutism, all or nothing, and ‘us vs. them’. I’ve said it before, to more than just you-They have you right where they want you. Energized to vote with them at a whim, and angry toward the enemy opposition. If I disagree, then I’m worse than a terrorist. It’s total self proven shit human beings like you that just don’t give a fuck about making anything better, it’s just ‘Fuck you, you don’t think like I do so your the enemy!’ It’s people like you that wouldn’t die for my right to believe what I believe, you would let me die because that’s just one less enemy progressive around. It’s taken me this long in putting up with your lazy, unoriginal, hyperbolic, hateful, bullshit. You don’t want to move forward, you don’t want brotherhood. You want the enemy defeated. The lowly, worse than terrorist, progressive enemy. For the record, even though you are wrong about 99% of everything you’ve ever showcased here, I would still die for your right to what you believe, including your right to hate me at the caprice of the propaganda artists that have hacked your mind for their own ends in gaining and keeping power.

      I don’t know about you, Mark, but I say IT’S TIME. BAN THIS ASSHOLE.

      • What a bunch of bullshit – the kind that comes from a dopey college student who hasn’t done anything yet and who likes to lecture everyone who has actually accomplished something – the only thing you would die for is the state and to make sure it maintains its authority over all of us so as to make sure we’re all kept in line – like a good leftist terrorist.

        • So, the feds killed the branch davidians, huh? That CSX suddenly disobeyed all laws of physics and chemistry and ignited.
          Fascinating!
          They pumped CSX into the compound from a tube attached to the CEV barrel. And that *is* what was used, a CEV, Combat Engineer Vehicle, not a tank. The CEV can throw a TNT charge with that barrel, but it can’t fire a tank round, it’s not built for that, it’s built to blow a path through minefields and other obstructions.

          Now, *why* did the feds go after the branch davidians? Oh yeah, firearms violations. Something about NFA firearms on premises that were not licensed, no tax stamp for them, no background check for them, etc.
          So, the BATFE decided to play Keystone Cops in their entry. They ended up being shot up while trying to serve a search warrant.
          But, that seems to be acceptable to you anarchists. It’s not to the rest of us.
          The branch davidians did dump fuel on their roof, that was captured on video, which I was watching live at the time. No agent was anywhere near where the fire broke out, so I guess it was magic and chemistry disobeying the laws of nature again.

          Now, if you said Ruby Ridge, I’d agree that that was above and beyond the call of midconduct that should have resulted in the incarceration of federal agents.

          As for this, he has repeatedly lost in court, he owes the money and tries to claim that the US government doesn’t even exist! He wasn’t as bad as the “militias” that showed up though. They offered armed force against US government law enforcement agents who were removing cattle that was unlawfully grazing on federal land. That was by the order of the court.
          When men plot to engage in armed resistance to their government, that is sedition and is unprotected speech. When they engage in insurrection, they have committed treason when directed against their own government.
          I use quotes for militia because a *real* militia is under the command of their county seat and/or their state governor, unless called into federal service in time of emergency. None of that happened, they self-commanded themselves to travel a great distance, then bravely take cover behind their wives and children.
          As far as I’m concerned, every sniper in federal service should have been mobilized to the site and if the “militias” did engage, the snipers terminate them as an imminent danger to the nation.

          As for the free speech zone, that is the biggest bunch of BS I’ve ever heard in my life. Regardless of where they’re established, it implies that free speech exists nowhere else, nullifies protests to seek redress of grievances with one’s government and is repressive in nature. I don’t care *who* is protesting, they have a right to be heard, per multiple points of our Constitution.
          Imagine my shock to redeploy home after years away in the war zone to learn of “free speech zones”! I wanted to vomit.

          But, we stand now at a point where a precedent was made, he who has a bunch of crazies with guns has the right of law in this nation. The rule of law was replaced by the rule of the thug with the gun.

        • Way to keep your response blunted and irrelevant Steve. Where in what I said did I even mention ‘what you’ve accomplished’? Why on earth would I have a problem with you accomplishing something?

          Yeah, what am I thinking going to college in the modern world? That’s not accomplishing anything, that’s not having ‘had done anything’.

          Again, thinking the state shouldn’t have any authority over anybody is just batshit. Thinking they shouldn’t ‘keep anybody in line’ is just fucking crazy. Are we a nation of laws or not?? Is law pointless? Is a central government pointless? Convince me Steve, try to at least elaborate on why I’m a terrorist for thinking the law should exist and should be enforced. Explain to me why law is terrorism in your view. Can you?Do you even know why you think that? Explain why the law shouldn’t exist and why it’s just wholly oppressive and has never shown any other function and merit. Given that you’ve apparently ‘accomplished something’, is the power of the state (system of laws) over you really as oppressive and tyrannical as you think it is?

          I’m so wrong, aren’t I Steve? I just don’t get it. Well, yet again I want you to take me to school. Take this chance Steve, school me. Take this chance for debate and not just a place to shit all over those that don’t hold your view. DEFEND YOUR POSITION, (if you can), why am I a terrorist? Try as hard as you possibly can Steve, to keep it within the bounds of logic. No slippery slopes, no red herrings, no straw men. Back your shit up man, NUT UP OR STFU.

      • Agree 100%, I am pretty sick of these right wing nuts as well. But what to do? Vote, yes but they control so much these days, the media , schools and prisons. What can we do? These people have really gone off the deep end with their guns and bibles. When did this all start? Lee Atwater? Rush? Glenn ? Roger Ailes? Fear and anger are powerful motivators and fox news has captured that a long time ago.
        The loss of our manufacturing jobs I fear has left a lot of anger white men jobless and putting the blame on anyone unlike them seems to be comforting to them. I wish these people would wise up and see the real enemy to their existence is not the liberal boggy man but the people shipping their jobs, ALEC, Koch brothers.
        But wrap anything in the bible and it sells.

  11. Grazing fees on property confiscated from him by the Feds with the excuse of saving the Desert Tortoise from being trampled on by cattle.

    • Can you please give a link to documentation that proves that this land was confiscated from Bundy or that it was ever owned by Bundy. I am trying really hard to see Bundy’s side of this but I can’t find anything that backs up his argument.

  12. It was in the news when this fiasco started.
    Now the media is turning it around.
    I’m surprised you didn’t see it.

    • The fact that you can’t link to any factual information proves that you are blindly following the words of the Tea Party without doing any research. I feel sorry for people like you. Now I will wait for the childish insults that you right winggers are so good at.

  13. Listen to the insane right wingers on here accusing “progressives” of wanting a Waco or Branch Davidian style stand off when it was they who showed up with their guns to stop law officers from doing their duty. The mental illness of this crowd never ceases to amaze me. You point a loaded weapon at a law officer, you go to jail or get taken out.
    I fail to see why this “engagement” wasn’t resolved in exactly the way these homegrown terrorists wanted it to be.
    If they hide behind their women and children, then surround the group with expert snipers and take them out without harming their “hostage” victims. Don’t just walk away leaving them to think they’ve won.
    Take em down like the raving, uneducated, animals they are.

    • This sheep, Tim, is definitely in line – no need to worry about this guy – he’ll bend over and let his federal agent saviors do what they want to him – hope it feels good. Be sure to at least ask their name before they’re done with you.

      • Yeah, cause abiding by the law as enacted by a democratic republic and enforced with constitutional authority is the same as getting fucked in the ass.

        I’m really getting a sense of just how radicalized you’re becoming Steve. Who’s the terrorist? Sounds like you’re on the path to becoming one. Good luck with that.

  14. The Feds left after they heard Harry Reid was involved in the stolen property working a deal with the Chinese in the sale of rare earth metals which the land is full of.
    So why don’t you left wingers do what your good at like Obama giving Trojan a $700,000 grant to manufacture an Anal Condom.
    I’m sure you all would be satisfied.

    • Please link to documentation that states that this land was confiscated from the Bundy family. This documentation must only be available to Tea Party affiliates because I can’t find it. Obviously you must have seen this documentation because you seem so sure of yourself.

  15. Try translating your comment into English.
    It’s not impressing anyone.

  16. Your IQ must be in the single digits.
    No one used Cyanide at Waco
    The Feds used a flammable tear gas which ignited the inside of the compound and killed everyone.
    You seem to get inflamed real quick because you probably have severe mental health issues.

  17. Fed funding = My Tax $
    Illegals funding. = My Tax $
    Congresses bloated retirement = My Tax $
    Feds bailing out Banks = My Tax $
    Feds bailing out Wall St= My Tax $
    Feds ripping off students with Sallie Mae = My Tax $ And My personal tax paid savings.
    The Feds think they own us and they do because the BIG Corps Lobby them by shoving millions of $ up the guzoots of our Congressmen and women.

    • G, the war in Iraq= Your tax $, my parents tax $, my buddies getting killed while Bush the Lesser looked under office furniture for WMD’s and laughing over it.
      The war in Afghanistan= Your tax $, my buddies terminating rather unpleasant people and as a result, that expensive war caused us to lose less office buildings.

      You gripe about paying taxes, then you gripe over federal agents attempting to collect long overdue fees that would reduce your tax burden.

  18. Nobody was hiding behind their wives.
    Their wives were braver and more AMERICAN then the Liberal SOB’s
    The cowards were the armed Feds trying to look like gang busters on unarmed Real Americans.

    • Dear God in heaven! Those “armed feds” were armed, true. Every law enforcement officer in the land is armed. They so looked like gang busters on unarmed cattle that were criminally trespassing, oh the horrors! They defended themselves from hysterical idiots who accosted them, too damned bad. If the civilians who were knocked to the ground have a beef, there are courts that will hear it. Insurrection is not an appropriate response, nor is sedition or treason.
      Meanwhile, “militias” showed up. I use quotations, as *real* militias are under the command of their county or state governor, not neighbors. They showed up heavily armed and threatened federal law enforcement officers, while having their wives and children between them and the federal agents. When Muslims did it in Iraq, it was called cowardice, but these people bravely hid behind women and children.
      Screw yourself, you are an idiot. A seditious idiot by supporting open sedition, insurrection and treason.

      Well, at least DHS is getting recordings of IP traffic from these idiots. Hopefully, they have the court order to present the NSA for full recordings as well.

  19. Hello, anyone with any sense knows the Billions per week Bush threw to unknown recipients during Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Another perfect example of the Feds throwing away our hard working tax dollars

    • Anyone with any sense and the capability to read would know where billions of dollars went. Other than black budget operations, the large budget that was in the billions was quite well documented and is public record.

  20. Wizard1 your the typical sub species that’s destroying our country with your idiotic comments

    • How fascinating! A veteran utilizing his right to free speech, something protected by our very first amendment is destroying the country!
      Not insurrectionists, not seditionists, not treasonous traitors, but simple, reasonable, free speech that speaks of facts and numbers.

      I bet you proclaim that you support the troops, as long as we remain silent and bow to your whimsy.
      Sorry, won’t ever happen.

    • Speaking of meds, have you taken your lithium today?
      I didn’t think so.
      The only meds I take are ibuprofen, ACE inhibitor and calcium channel blocker.
      To judge from you irrational responses, your medical requirements are quite extensive, but largely in anti-psychotic drugs.

  21. Don’t judge me by your standards.
    I support the vets 100%.

  22. I don’t or never have taken meds.
    And by the way Ibuprofen even in small doses causes liver degeneration also Tylenol but on larger dosages.
    If possible stick to Aspirin.
    That was off subject but check it out

    • Dear God, can you get *anything* right, G?
      First, ibuprofen isn’t processed by the liver at all. Acetaminophen is. Ibuprofen goes through the kidneys.
      Aspirin is metabolized by the liver.
      Of the three, acetaminophen is very hard on the liver, ibuprofen is mildly hard on the kidneys and aspirin is infamously harsh on the stomach, can cause reactive asthma and is well linked to Reye’s syndrome.
      As my kidneys and liver are quite healthy, but I do have significant osteoarthritis, ibuprofen is the drug of choice to block inflammation.

  23. I stand corrected on the ibuprofen it does go through the Kidney and Destroys it.
    Notice the amounts of transplants?
    Another major cause of organ failures which include the Liver are the GMO Corn being sold throughout the country.
    Corn once our biggest grain export is not purchase from the EU or the Eastern European nations because of the 100 fold cancer increase in organs from the GMO.
    ANOTHER THING OBAMA SIGNED A LAW THAT PREVENTS OTHER NATIONS FROM SUING
    Monsanto or other US GMO companies.

    • First, there is zero evidence to support your claim of organ damage from GMO corn. None, nada, zilch.
      There are conspiracy sites that proclaim such things, but again, they offer no evidence to support their claims, such as vital statistics from states or federal sources. Even states that don’t get along well with the federal government. Nope, not a one.
      Then, you add in something about transplants, which have been going on since before GMO anything existed. The number one cause of kidney failure is diabetes, second place belongs to hypertension. The patient then goes on dialysis, which is around 10% as effective as a real kidney, throws off electrolytes and has hormonal effects that can induce osteoporosis and anemia. Hence, the necessity for kidney transplants when they are available.
      Again, you are wrong on corn sales, which have jumped significantly and are still climbing due to lower South American harvests. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/corn-approachs-bull-market-as-u-s-export-sales-advance.html

      Do you ever use Google and *not* exclusively go to conspiracy theory websites? Everything I said I just Googled to be sure I wasn’t making an error. I know medications and pharmacology because I was previously an 18D. I know renal disease and dialysis, as well as transplant issues because my father ignored his diabetes and hypertension while I was deployed for five years, resulting in end state renal disease and vascular dementia.

  24. This conversation has strayed.
    So I’ll say good night.
    And thanks for proving me correct.

  25. I have never seen anyone as brainwashed by fox news as G on.
    I hate to be bearer of bad news but Bundy is going to end up in jail for a long, long time.
    Fairly sure nobody of importance is going to cry about it,
    what I find the most amusing is that nobody has realized that arguing with G on is like
    playing chess with a pidgin, no matter how well you play he’s just going to knock over
    all the peace’s, shit on the board then strut around like he won.

    • I rather figured that out early one, but I was bored and had little else to do. :)
      I figured out his strutting “victory” by his closing remark that I ‘proved his point’, while I had actually disproved it (and accidentally forgot to put two URL’s in.

      Oh well, it was light entertainment.

    • Your point “…that arguing with G on is like playing chess with a pidgin,….” is so funny I was doubled over in laughter, on the floor. Thank you.

  26. As is true of all the land in this country, it was taken from native Americans. Why are you holier than thou self proclaimed patriot tea party types not in an up rage about that fact.

  27. Hey this is America believe what you want to believe in. I’m glad that Bundy is doing what he’s doing.

    • There is a substantial difference between believing in something and doing something.

      So, if I believe that you should have molten lead poured down your throat for defying federal law and supporting insurrection, should that be permitted to happen?

      Fortunately for you, while I have that emotion, my belief is different and such things should *never* be permitted to happen. Our laws agree with that view.

      Now, when one speaks openly against the government, that may and usually is protected free speech. That is a far cry from how things were while the ink was still wet on our Constitution.
      But, when one speaks of actively engaging agents of the federal government or even the federal government itself in armed combat, that is not protected free speech, that is sedition. A felony as old as this nation is. When one actively participates in an armed resistance against the federal government it is not protest, it is both insurrection *and* treason.
      That is how the law is and has been since this nation was formed.

      Now, how did George Washington handle a similar “protest” that had armed men threatening (and some actually conductiong) violence against agents of the federal government?
      He had the militia of three states assemble and rode with them to Pittsburgh. He inspected the troops and sent them to discuss the Whiskey Rebellion with those insurrectionists.
      They retired from the field and payed their overdue taxes.
      Lest they’d have found a bayonet up their behind at best.

  28. Right Bundy doesn’t own the land anymore because it was robbed from him by the Federal government.
    The BLM is now eying 90,000 acres of private property on the Texas side of the Red River in Texas.
    You can check it out on mailonline.com

    • Still wrong. Bundy himself admitted that his family never owned the land, still doesn’t own the land and isn’t about to own the land.
      The land is owned by BLM and has always been federal land.
      So, the reality is, whether it was BLM land or a neighbors land, he illegally trespassed and did not pay for the use of the land. It would be like someone putting a tent on my front lawn and refusing to move or pay rent.

      But, in your version of the world, a version that makes sense to no sane person, anyone can do anything they want on anyone else’s land and not pay as long as they can get a bunch of cowards with guns to hide behind women’s dresses and children’s diapers while threatening violence.

  29. You’ve got it backwards the Federal government thinks they own the citizens of the USA.
    Which shows how insane everything has become.

    • Insane is quite appropriate, when considering your remark.
      There is no hint of the US government considering anyone property. That is slavery and has been outlawed for over a century. Do join us in the sane 21st century!

      Somehow, in your delusional state, you think that people are property because animals that were criminally trespassing in violation of all property rights laws ever conceived by humanity, were rounded up and removed from said property. Somehow, armed thugs threatening insurrection, which is in and of itself insurrection, the planning of being sedition, the action of which is treason, is making someone property.
      Well, that is close, as a prisoner is quite close to being treated as property after being convicted of a felony. Sedition has always been a felony, insurrection has always been a felony and treason has always been a felony.

      • Logic and objective truth do nothing but challenge these guys’ belief systems. It’s no wonder every response is irrelevant and completely vacant of any real defense of said beliefs. Something so simple and widespread as peer review and verified research would utterly obliterate everything they believe in, and apparently being wrong is such an insufferable defeat to their honor and pride that what is asserted with proof and perfectly verifiable information is shrugged off with truthiness as a shield.

        I can only think of Will Ferrel and Mark Wahlberg arguing about tuna and lions in The Other Guys. You come along after G’s bullshit and it always ends with ‘That didn’t go the way you thought it would, did it?’ Which is why reading all these has my sides busting. So great.

        • True enough. I’ve lost count of the logical fallacies used so far.
          The only reason I’m commenting back is, to be honest, I’m bored.
          It would be good for a laugh, save for the fact that the mental instability displayed so far is an indictment of the abject failure that is both our educational systems and mental health care system.

  30. You really don’t have a clue of what your talking about.
    Maybe I should explain it to you in JIVE or EBONICS for a fee of $5,000 USD.

    • Why do things half-assed? Go the whole route and show how classy you aren’t. Just drop the N bomb. You know you want to.
      It’s the closest thing to reason that your insane self is capable of.

      Go get professional mental health care guidance, you really badly need it. Preferably before you cause harm to yourself or others.

  31. With the Low Grade morons in office a Nuclear war is very possible.

    • Well, most fortunately, your party shan’t be in office for a very, very long time.

  32. Correct but this administration in 4 years spent more then Bush did in 8 years
    Which makes both parties disgusting and we need clean sweep of these parasites.

    • You might want to re-check those numbers.
      This administration briefly spent stimulus money to get the economy moving again, which had a side effect of fixing a lot of roads, highways and a few bridges. It also did spend a lot of money with that war thingie in Afghanistan.
      That little thingie is dreadfully expensive, all that shooting, blowing up houses, trees and people and keeping the men supplied, fed and healthy and all.
      It’s really expensive to do all that. I know, I was there in that war thingie, blowing up houses, trees and people. Wasn’t a lot of fun and to be honest, every single second of my time there was worrying about how to save the taxpayer money and not lose the war in the process.

      OK, that wasn’t my concern at all. Wars are expensive. Now, we had three options. We could have surrendered and renamed this the Great Caliphate of America. We could have surrendered slightly less and closed all of our embassies and military bases. We could have fought the bastards all over Afghanistan.
      We did the latter and it is expensive. Get over it.

      What do you want to bitch about next? Your mythical losses in taxation due to senior citizens collecting the social security that they paid into for the majority of their life?

      • Note also that during the entire Bush administration the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were “off budget,” meaning that they were not counted as spending and were not recognized as contributing to the deficit.

        One of the first things Obama did upon taking office in 2009 was to put the wars on budget so that they would accurately represent the financial condition of the nation.

        That is the biggest factor in the difference between the spending of both administrations. Bush simply hid his spending with gimmicks.

  33. Many years ago. when I was younger than I am now, I took a course in FORTRAN. Our final exam 9a take home) was to write a program that would generate apparently coherent sentences suing randomly generated numbers to CALL entries from several columns. Each column had about 100 words in English; sentence length and paragraph length were also determined by random numbers.

    Go’s comments looked like the results of what we wrote: sounds sensible until it’s examined, and then is found to be incoherent babble.

    Thanks guys for a few minutes of hilarious reading.

    G

    • Gene, you should see some of the other online discussions.
      Similar nonsense, but then we get a full blown Chinese Room problem with one or two commenters who I honestly believe are lousy AI implementations.

      For those unfamiliar with the Chinese Room problem, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
      Abbreviations, slang and phonetically misspelled words trip up an AI pretty much all of the time.

  34. That was without the bailout money that was a complete failure.
    Wake up, don’t rationalize.

    • Hey, Rip Van Winkle, you really need to wake up.
      The bailout money was under Bush the Lesser, not Obama. Totally different administration and even some of the Congress has changed since then.

      Wow! Never saw a comatose person speak while still in a coma before!

  35. Here are some snippets from https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/06/letter-to-the-editor-bundy-forfeited-right-to-graze-cattle-counter-opinion-on-range-war/#.U1gEETmVsqH, a letter to the editor of the St George News from someone who appears to have a few clues, and actually provides references.

    Under the Taylor Grazing Act, a permit system was set up that granted grazing privileges, not rights. The grazing permit is a revocable license under the law, not creating any right, title, interest, or estate in or to the land. In the early 1990s the BLM revised Mr. Bundy’s, and other ranchers’, permits to protect the desert tortoise. Mr. Bundy did not like the revision and so he made, in my opinion, a catastrophic, knee-jerk mistake when he stopped paying his grazing fees in defiance. It was catastrophic because what he did the moment he stopped paying was remove all legal standing he had. He relinquished any claim he had to graze on public land. When he did that, the BLM rightfully canceled his permit and would not grant him anymore permits.

    When the Taylor Grazing Act was passed, it was done in response to the cries and pleas of ranchers out West dealing with decades of rangeland deterioration, conflicts between cattle ranchers and migratory sheepherders, jurisdictional disputes, and states’ rights debates, who needed help; see Encyclopedia of the Great Plains Web page on the Taylor Grazing Act.

    In the early 1990s when this was taking place, there was a land swap between Nevada and the Federal Government where Nevada offered to buy the grazing allotments to protect the desert tortoise in exchange for desert tortoise habitat that they could destroy for development. The ranchers grazing on those allotments were offered the chance to sell their allotments and did to the tune of roughly $5 million dollars. Mr. Bundy was not given the option of a buy-out for his allotment because he had forfeited his rights to it when he stopped paying his fees. Therefore, the permit was sold to Nevada for $375,000.00. When Mr. Bundy was shut-out, he decided not to recognize the federal government’s authority over him, and started grazing illegally.

    The letter continues quite a bit further, and I’ve left out bits above in the interests of brevity, so you need to follow the link above to see the full picture.

    • To clarify, the Taylor Grazing Act was passed in 1934.

      Bundy *might* have retained some standing had he placed the grazing fees in escrow pending negotiation or a court settlement. He did not do so, lost repeatedly in court and then claimed that the government he was previously in court against has no authority, which contradicts his previous action in court.

  36. It should have been called the Taylor Vaseline Act of 1934 which by the way is around the time the Feds said the citizens can not own Gold.

  37. From the original news they said the property was in the family since the 1800′s.
    It looks like the Skunk Harry Reid is trying to re-write history

  38. You have the balls to mention the words Obama and Budget???!!!!!
    Time to get off the meds

    • Time for you to get onto the meds and while you’re at it, learn about how the government of the United States of America works.
      Congress approves a budget, the POTUS signs or vetoes it. Congress has refused to work and play well together, resulting in one federal government shutdown and one part of it played the outraged surprise game to notice that federal services were shut down when there was no money available to operate them.

      But then, I’m trying to confuse the *issues* with silly little things like facts, rather than hyperbole, innuendo and name calling.

  39. His whole first term in office he didn’t have a budget,,
    The first time in History we didn’t have a budget.

    • Again, that was Congress, who wouldn’t make a budget.
      The POTUS offers a suggested budget to Congress. Congress then takes it, adds pork, plays games with it, folds, spindles and mutilates it and sends it back to the POTUS to sign.
      Congress has been obstructionist since Obama’s first term, a direct rejection of the popular vote and our form of government.
      Every single one of the obstructionists should have been impeached.

    • G:

      Wrong.
      From 1789 to 1921, the government had no budget. The first law to require a budget was passed in 1921 by a Republican controlled Congress. Woodrow Wilson had suffered a stroke, and the Republican were trying to oust him. They passed a law requiring a budget, and were then waiting for him to not submit one, so they could impeach him, and thus oust him from office. The enterprise failed, primarily because Wilson’s wife submitted a one page budget.

  40. Hello!!! The majority of Congress were Democrats for the FIRST 2 Years of Obama’s Presidency.
    Obama is and has been running the country worse then a 3 rd world African country

    • I never ceases to amaze me how people who have never been to any third world nation can proclaim how the US is being run like a third world nation.
      I’ll give you a small hint, I’ve been to many, many third world nations, all courtesy of your mommy and daddy’s tax dollars. The US is only like a third world nation in the way it treats the health care system.
      Though, if the far right gets their way, we’ll have a third world educational system.

      Tell that bullshit to someone who hasn’t served all over the world in every shithole the cold war screwed up. You gain no traction with me with your abysmal ignorance and delusions.

  41. Your reply shows your ignorance in the way of the world.
    All civilized nations have free health care.
    Obamacare is not free and it cost more then regular health insurance and Obama sells it to you by aiming a gun at your head to buy it.
    Wake up you @$xz*
    Translated it reads “you stupid fool”

    • Still wrong. Every *industrialized* nation has universal health care. Non-industrialized nations may or may not have universal health care.
      Some non-industrialized nations do not because they cannot afford such a program.
      But, hey, what’s reality and direct, personal experience with such things mean. Obviously nothing at all, delusions experienced on one’s Twinkie encrusted sofa counts as supreme knowledge and wisdom to you.

  42. Before 1921 a budget wasn’t required by law. Every idiot knows that.

  43. G:

    Neither the President nor any part of the government sells anything under the ACA. I Health insurance under the ACA is sold by insurance carriers; the whole act is a paean to the insurance industry.

    As to costs, the reports are just beginning to come in, and suggest that, for equivalent coverage (not always possible) the present cost to the consumer is less than before the passage and application of the Act. But in all fairness,no one will know for sure for maybe a year of two.

    Using basic insurance mathematics, the cost per participant should go down as the overall insured pool increases in size: the laws of probability take over.

    • I agree. The ACA *is* a paean to the insurance carriers. What astounded me was the vociferous objections by those carriers initially. It was rather like them saying, “No! I do not *want* to make more money!” Something rather astonishing to hear any business say!
      Now, they’re happily signing up new clients and making money.

      One annoyance is, I have no income, as I’ve spent the past couple of years caring for my elderly father 24/7. When I tried to get health insurance, the price was well outside of the household budget. The advice on the site was apply for medicaid. My state refuses to create insurance exchanges *or* expand medicaid, refusing the additional federal money that was to pay for it. So, my state summarily rejected me and my disabled wife, referring me to the federal insurance exchange.
      I *could* get health care from the VA, but that leaves my wife without any medical care.

      But, I’m rather accustomed to falling between cracks. Under the Bush tax rebates, my income wasn’t at a level where I could participate, either my pay was too low or too high, depending on when it was. At one point, it was too low because I was in the military. After, too high, as I retired from the military and began contracting for the DoD.
      Sometimes, one has to laugh, because to do anything else would be to end up going down the road to madness.

  44. You say I’m wrong because every industrialized country has free Health care.
    Are you a moron?
    Everyone Knows industrialized countries have Healthcare.
    Now I want you to read just what I said.
    AND Now I want you to tell me if all those industrialized Countries force their CITIZENS UNDER PENALTY OF LAW to buy It.
    If your a Moron you will argue my point.

    • Ah, now I understand your difficulty. It is one of literacy.
      You had said, “every civilized country in the world”. That is incorrect, as every nation in the world is civilized. However, every nation in the world is not industrialized.
      Every industrialized nation in the world, save our own, has universal health care.
      The US now has a bastardized commercial version of it, which leaves millions lost in the cracks, it is the ACA.
      As for universal health care, every other industrialized nation *does* “force” their citizens to pay for it. It is called taxation, their schools, roads, health care and more are paid for by their higher taxation rate.

      Now, for the literacy part. The proper way to make that feeble attempt at an insult is not “your a moron”, but either “you are a moron” or “you’re a moron”.
      That said, when one resorts to such ad hominem attacks, all know that one is out of ammunition and knowledge. Such behavior reflects of behavior in a first grade schoolyard, not the discussion of reasonable adults.

  45. Well you know!!!
    You fooled me….
    I realized I was communicating with a low grade Moron.
    But not to the point where a new definition of what Low is.

  46. G:

    I was about to comment on your statement concerning industrialized countries “forcing people to but insurance”, but Wzrd1 dis such an outstanding job that I’m speechless.

    As a reference data point: I have a pacemaker. It was put in when I was working in he Slovak Republic. I paid 20% off the top of my salary, as did everyone there. That paid for the trains to run on time, for the phones to work, for the banks to function, for almost all health care to be “free”. My cardiologist cost me nothing; the cardiac surgeon who put in the pacemaker (who was a US citizen, a graduate of Northwestern Medical School) cost me nothing. However, I did have to pay $2 US for 6 days’ hospital stay. My pacemaker, a top of the line 2 wire Medtronic, cost me nothing.

    Those systems are called “Single Payer systems” Thanks to the GOP/TP screaming, the US currently does not have a single payer system, although it is my understanding that almost everyone in the medical field agrees it is the way to go.

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